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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:20 pm  Post subject: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard: Overview Page UP!  
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Gravitude Bar rankings are NOW LIVE! I haven't coded it into the scoreboard just yet, but you can view the now-active rankings here:

scoreboard_best.php

Right now it's designed to whichever forum style you use. I may change it later to mimic the general scoreboard design but for right now I don't see any reason to delay the unveiling. :woot

We made some small changes to the system in the few weeks since I unveiled it. They are listed below:

  • Missing scores/times are now penalized to 50 points below last place for showoff and 1 second below last place for racing times.
  • Track Ceilings were instituted on long racing tracks that may unfairly affect rankings. Right now the only tracks that have ceilings are the SSX 3 Peak Races. They still have a significant (perhaps unfair) impact on racing rankings for SSX 3 Racing. Would you guys like to remove them from the equation since they are so glitched out?
  • Right now, the Scoreboard is set to update the scores once a week. It should update automatically Wednesday Night/Thursday morning at midnight. I may manually update it as well if there are significant score entries.

Overall I think there are some surprises since we've applied our methodology to the actual, active scoreboard. Certainly the rankings are subtly different, but do a fantastic job of showing who is the best based on different criteria. I'm proud of the way it turned out. :D

--------------

EDIT: Test Scoreboard Rankings are LIVE!

Okay guys, the "Beta" version of the rankings mod is online at the test board!

First things first - this copy of the database is OLD and DOES NOT reflect the current scoreboard rankings. It's actually more like a snapshot of the scoreboard from a few years ago. So keep that in mind when you look at it. The rankings will be different - but not THAT much different, than the test board database. Take a look and let me know if anything strikes you guys as weird, but overall I think we pretty much nailed it. :yes

http://www.merqurycity.net/ssx_forum2/s ... d_best.php

Now, as to how we did it - it involves a bit of math, and I'll spell that out later when I get some time. But basically on each individual track we equated everyone's scores to a number out of 10,000 - first place gets 10,000/10000, and everyone below that gets a number below that based on how well your score is. Then we added them up and tallied them into different categories.

That's how we totalled up the individual track pages like best SSX 3 Player or Best SSX 3 Showoff or Racer. However, on the Best Overall categories (Best Overall Player across All Games, Best Racer Across All Games, Best Showoffer Across All Games) we had to take more into account, so we ran the same system but also included a few extra steps:

  • The ranking integer for each person's game was weighted according to how popular the game was. So players who have scores on SSX 3, which is the most competitive game, are ranked higher than players who have scores on less popular games like SSX Blur. We instituted this because in early trials, the Best Overall Categories were always dominated by guys like LLCoolDave, who had a bunch of #1 scores on SSX Blur. SSX Blur has fewer than 5% of the overall scores, and thus it's not fair that players who play less popular games had higher rankings due to less competition, so we weighted the scores. SSX 3 and SSX Tricky are weighted the strongest, followed by SSX On Tour, SSX and finally Blur.
  • We are going to require that a player have a certain number of scores on a game for it to count in the overall rankings. Right now we've decided that should be a minimum of 3 scores - however if you guys feel strongly about this, make a case for another number, higher or lower. This was instituted to keep guys who have just one or two scores on a game from not incurring the penalty that is given to players who don't have any scores on a particular game. The rankings may change a little as we alter this particular dynamic.

So take a look and let me know if you have any questions. :)

---------------
OLD POST BELOW THIS LINE:

If there were going to be a ranking system on the scoreboard, as in "Best Players in a certain category" - what categories should there be?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:23 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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= Track Times
= Trick Scores
= Track Performance (an average performance on all races?)
= Trick Performance (same as above, but for tricks?)
= Completion Performance (completion on SSX games)

And some other stuff. I'm not really good at this.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:03 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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what?! i heard something about categories! should i be making awards?!?!?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:05 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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:lol No - I'm talking about a feature on the snowboards where you can view a table of rankings like "Best Overall SSX Player" or "Best Overall Racer" - stuff like that. I'm asking what sort of rankings should we have?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:07 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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Like KBABZ said;
  • Best Overall Player (races and slopestyle and bigair, submitted into one score)
  • Best Racer
  • Best Slopestyle
  • Best Big Air
  • Best Trick Usage (in fact, the most monster tricks etc..)
  • Best Track Usage (the best path, line to race, it's sad everybody uses the same line once a path is revealed)

note1: The overall, race, slopestyle and bigair scores are simple to judge (it's the highest or lowest number)

note2: For the Trick/Track Usage I'd choose for a voting system, one vote each track each person. Also people should need to have a certain number of posts to vote, otherwise lots of people could make accounts to vote and then leave.

@ gondee: I dunno if this is possible on this board (about the votes etc...) i was just thinking aloud without paying any attention to logic :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:37 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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Bennieboj wrote:
@ gondee: I dunno if this is possible on this board (about the votes etc...) i was just thinking aloud without paying any attention to logic :D

:lol No worries, I know where you're coming from. Some of what you're asking for isn't possible though, since that data isn't in the scoreboard. What I'm looking for is what the scoreboard should keep track of and any issues you guys can think of in tabulating scores. This is what I can come up with off the top of my head:

  • Best Overall Player (combining racing and tricking, all games)
  • Best Overall Showoffer (all games)
  • Best Overall Racer (all games)
  • Best Overall Player (combining racing and tricking, each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur)
  • Best Overall Showoffer (each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur))
  • Best Overall Racer (each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur))

I think that's just about all we can reasonably tabulate given the info held the scoreboard. My question to the community is are there any concerns or ways to calculate these scores that you might have issues with? For example, the easiest way to tabulate these rankings would be on individual track place (best overall player would have highest average track place across all tracks), etc - but on the Blur tracks there are very few scores, giving them more weight than the SSX 3 tracks, so obviously we'll have to weight the scores somehow, and I'd like your feedback on those questions. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:58 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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I'd weigh the games in order of coolness:
  1. SSX *fill in*
  2. SSX *fill in*
  3. SSX *fill in*
  4. SSX Blur
  5. SSX OT

fill in the first three for yourself, I'm not going to make a decision abuot them since I don't own them all, but Blur and OT rly needed at the end of the list =p

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:02 am  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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Bennieboj wrote:
I'd weigh the games in order of coolness:
  1. SSX *fill in*
  2. SSX *fill in*
  3. SSX *fill in*
  4. SSX Blur
  5. SSX OT

fill in the first three for yourself, I'm not going to make a decision abuot them since I don't own them all, but Blur and OT rly needed at the end of the list =p



the last and 4th one arent right at me i think OT is 4th

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:37 am  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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Yea, I think so too...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:32 am  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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You could discuss that ^^ :D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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I think there should also be something to tell people how skillful you are at the game. A low-skilled player like me getting 1 million on Alaska feels worthy of mention, even though for you guys it's pretty easy.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:29 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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KBABZ wrote:
I think there should also be something to tell people how skillful you are at the game. A low-skilled player like me getting 1 million on Alaska feels worthy of mention, even though for you guys it's pretty easy.

There's no real way to quantify that - I'm talking simply making rankings based on the information on the scoreboard. I think I've got most of it covered, but I wanted to make a topic so people have a forum to make suggestions, including those who have some insight into what to look out for when tabulating scores could raise any issues they could think of.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:44 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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We should have an awards ceremony every year for this kind of thing (or a specific date).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:46 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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PoorLeno42 wrote:
We should have an awards ceremony every year for this kind of thing (or a specific date).

:lol We do, it's called the Gravitude Awards! :lol But as far as the standings on this scoreboard goes, I suspect they won't change very often since we don't have a lot of new overall scores.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:48 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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Yea...if only there was a new SSX game, we would have new scores.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:12 pm  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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gondee wrote:
:lol No worries, I know where you're coming from. Some of what you're asking for isn't possible though, since that data isn't in the scoreboard. What I'm looking for is what the scoreboard should keep track of and any issues you guys can think of in tabulating scores. This is what I can come up with off the top of my head:

  • Best Overall Player (combining racing and tricking, all games)
  • Best Overall Showoffer (all games)
  • Best Overall Racer (all games)
  • Best Overall Player (combining racing and tricking, each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur)
  • Best Overall Showoffer (each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur))
  • Best Overall Racer (each individual game (SSX, Tricky, 3, On Tour, Blur))

I think that's just about all we can reasonably tabulate given the info held the scoreboard. My question to the community is are there any concerns or ways to calculate these scores that you might have issues with? For example, the easiest way to tabulate these rankings would be on individual track place (best overall player would have highest average track place across all tracks), etc - but on the Blur tracks there are very few scores, giving them more weight than the SSX 3 tracks, so obviously we'll have to weight the scores somehow, and I'd like your feedback on those questions. :)
This looks good and really the only fair way to calculate for given fields would be to take an average of one's overall race/freestyle records to determine the Best " ". Pretty neat idea Gondee :wink

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:19 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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I think the threshold for high scores should be the Gold Time/Score required of you in the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:05 am  Post subject: Re: Question about the scoreboard  
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IceXtreme wrote:
This looks good and really the only fair way to calculate for given fields would be to take an average of one's overall race/freestyle records to determine the Best " ". Pretty neat idea Gondee :wink

Ice do you have any problems if scores were weighted in a certain direction as far as "best player" rankings were concerned? Should games with more scores (ie. more heavily competed) be worth more? And if so, do you know of a good system or equation to dictate how that should be done?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:08 am  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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Didn't we discuss this years ago when you were setting up the new scoreboard? IIRC you didn't want to complicate things, or was it that you had paid Austin for a specific job... or something... I forget. Why bother about it at this point? What made you change your mind -- are you putting your PHP skills to the test?

I don't see a reasonable way to quantify each game's scores/times to use in an overall ranking for all games. Nobody played Blur, few played SOT, and few played both SSX1/Tricky and SSX3.

Have you thought about the "rank value" system for SSX3?:
Quote:
I've added a "rank value" to give a slightly better overview of the best players and how far apart they stand. It's a simple [mean(cat_score/cat_topScore)*10000] formula (a 10000 score would mean that you're 1st in every category). It shows that eviltim has better scores than Oniz overall, but Oniz has better Slopestyle scores, which counts more than the other categories in the overall ranking.

This serves to normalize the scores for each category (since a Big Air score difference of 100k is more significant than a Slopestyle difference of 300k), as opposed to just adding up the scores from all freestyle tracks.

That system wouldn't do much in SSX1/Tricky, but might work for SOT. No idea about Blur.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:06 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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Is it really necessary to vhange the current system?

Tbh I like it the way it is, plain and simple.

nuff said

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:48 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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RE Virus wrote:
Didn't we discuss this years ago when you were setting up the new scoreboard? IIRC you didn't want to complicate things, or was it that you had paid Austin for a specific job... or something... I forget. Why bother about it at this point? What made you change your mind -- are you putting your PHP skills to the test?

Yes, it's been an idea of mine for a long time. It's the natural end progression for the scoreboard - we can find out who the best player for a given track is, but what about an entire game? Or across all the games? The scoreboard has evolved enough that I think it's a good time to implement this, even if the score scene is dead.

I wish I was good enough to code something like this - no I just have wanted to do this for a while and can have it done for a reasonable price. As far as the "why bother about it" aspect, I refuse to let that stop me from doing anything because if I listened to that then I'd just shut down the site and save myself the cost of hosting every month. Even if there isn't another SSX game, I can always apply this system to some other website I create.

Quote:
I don't see a reasonable way to quantify each game's scores/times to use in an overall ranking for all games. Nobody played Blur, few played SOT, and few played both SSX1/Tricky and SSX3.

It wouldn't be by scores, I'm thinking it would be by places. My question is, should scores on Blur should count less in the overall rankings since there are less scores, or should it all be equal? As far as who played what game, that's sort of the point. If someone wants the title of "Best Overall Player", they should have a wide variety of scores through the majority of the games. Otherwise they'll have to settle for "Best SSX 3 Player" or the like.

Quote:
Have you thought about the "rank value" system for SSX3?:
Quote:
I've added a "rank value" to give a slightly better overview of the best players and how far apart they stand. It's a simple [mean(cat_score/cat_topScore)*10000] formula (a 10000 score would mean that you're 1st in every category). It shows that eviltim has better scores than Oniz overall, but Oniz has better Slopestyle scores, which counts more than the other categories in the overall ranking.

This serves to normalize the scores for each category (since a Big Air score difference of 100k is more significant than a Slopestyle difference of 300k), as opposed to just adding up the scores from all freestyle tracks.

This is an interesting idea, that's what I"m asking for as far as input from you guys, systems to equal out the inequity of scores between the games - the sheer difference in score between SSX 1 and SSX 3 is such a mountain that we'll need to equalize them somehow. Be it based on rankings or some other system.

Quote:
That system wouldn't do much in SSX1/Tricky, but might work for SOT. No idea about Blur.

That's what I'm asking for input on - you guys cover more of the internet than I do, and may have seen a system of equalizing scores in another website somewhere else. Right now, the best I can see is to base the value of a score on the ranking it holds vs other scores on the same track. That way each game is based on it's own merits, equalized across all the games.

MAD_JO3 wrote:
Is it really necessary to vhange the current system?

Tbh I like it the way it is, plain and simple.

nuff said

The scoreboard itself will not change at all. The only thing this is doing is adding an extra feature to the scoreboard that shows a page of player rankings across all the scoreboards. Haven't you ever been curious who is numerically the best player based on a given set of criteria? That's what this would do - give us hard, mathematically based rankings that would help answer some questions we've all had on our minds at one point or another. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:44 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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If you could use RE's system for all of the games then there would be a score for everyone in each game theyve played. The either add up a players score from each game to get a cross game total (This would show the player who has done best and played the most games making them a more diverse player) or add them up but then average it back out over the number of games the player has played (Meaning no one is peanalised for not having played as many of the games as another player).

Having a score for each game should mean that ranking dosn't matter, removing any between game inequalities?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:49 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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Quote:
Having a score for each game should mean that ranking dosn't matter, removing any between game inequalities?

Theoretically, yes. :yes That's the idea, anyway. I'm asking you guys for good systems or insights I might be overlooking myself. For example, should first place on SnowJam with 3 scores in SSX Blur count the same as first place on Snow Jam with 35 scores? Is there something that I'm overlooking? Something you think we might be able to squeeze out of the Scoreboard data other than the regular system of rankings like what I listed above?

I want the players' feedback on that thing, because your perspective may be different than mine and I'd like some feedback before I institute of system of rankings. :yes

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:03 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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If you were looking for the best overall player your going to end up with whoever has posted scores on the most tracks. To create a final overall ranking that dosn't 'handicap' games with a lower amount of players you could...

Give every track in all the games a base score, this is simple for trick event because you can just use 0, timed events could use the slowest recorded time or prehaps the platinum medal time (If it exists for in every game). Every player uses the score/times they have, and gets the base for any event in which they havn't posted a time. The only trickey bit is finding a link between tricks and races.

This however will crucify players who havnt played as many of the games as others.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:34 pm  Post subject: Re: Best Overall Rankings on Scoreboard  
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This however will crucify players who havnt played as many of the games as others.

Yes, but that's what it takes to be the "Best Overall Player" across all the games. Otherwise players can up their scores by submitting more scores for old games. Works both ways, and I'm content with the results either way. The "Best Overall SSX Player" shouldn't be limited to a player with a lot of good scores on one game. :no

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